– As far as I am concerned there are at least two kinds of systems. There are natural systems and a natural system is one that has a model in nature. And that is so wide spread you wouldn’t believe it. The other day we were reviewing a book which says something about the blueprint of something, biology, is in the cosmos. In other words, that you can’t think or be or do anything that is different from biology and the cosmos. I didn’t say that, but books have been written about it. In other words, the key to everything is in the cosmos is in biology and we can’t be or do anything other than that. Anyway that has to do with natural systems. There are literally hundreds and thousands of models in nature. You can go all the way from the lowest form of life up to sub human and human. And then there are man made systems. There is no model for this in nature. But the model of this comes out of man’s head. Now the man existed long before he became a thinking being. But after he became a thinking being he learned to and all of this has happened in a mere 200 thousand years. And remember that life has been on this earth 500 million years at least. And in a fifth of a one million is the time when man began to think and after man began to think he cooked up the notion of mathematics. All of the stuff that goes in the library, that came out of man’s head. And included in that is things like philosophy, psychology, civilization, religion, politics, social ideas, technology, electrical systems, everything came out of man’s head. Another one that goes in that is general systems theory. And I would make a big difference between general systems theory and natural systems. Natural systems you don’t have to debate where it came from that is in nature. That is the way one form of life relates to another. That is the way animal life relates to vegetable life, is there any difference? How far back do you have to go to make a difference? Vegetable life, plant life reproduces on schedule and so does animal life. It’s way of reproducing is the same, cycles, slow change, evolution over the cycles. So you can go on and on with that would be natural systems and you go on with man made systems, and I would say they are two different kinds of systems and there are literally hundreds of these. And I would say generally, in our thinking about it we mix up the two. We mix up the two and we mix them up between what came from nature and what came out of man’s head. Man’s head, man’s brain is a part of nature but what man thinks is not part of nature. That would be the main dividing line that I would make between natural system and general systems. If you want to put it you could say that man’s talks is nature but what he says is not a fact it’s not a part of nature. You got put a dividing line in this thing somewhere. And you get into all these old arguments you can go back to Bateson and Batesons just filled with these things. Take what you believe on all of that. Take it back and forth but that would be my ideas of a difference and you have to make a difference between natural systems and general systems. Because these things are so mixed up together. That has to do with the way man thinks about all these things. And what is a part of evolution. Well that is on the whole subject of systems. In terms of the natural course of man is to deny the past and attach on to a spouse and set up a new way of life. I would say to the 20th century this has been a pretty good way of going and it still is with in limits. But with the instant communication that has happened around the world it was more possible 50 years ago then now but it is pretty hard for a husband and wife to ever isolate themselves because the telegraph, radio, TV, instant communication and it’s pretty hard to get separated from anybody. And that plus you rule in population has made us all closer together. And the closer we are together the more we get allergic to our fellow human beings that is part of the population increase. So I’d say that has worked better up to this time that it has worked better in the past than it has worked for now. That has had to do with emigration and immigration. Back in the early days when this nation was founded there were people who could cut off from Europe and come to the United States and set up a new way of life. If you want to have a new way of life now, where in the hell are you going? There are not many places you can go. And, you know, you can ask yourself if you took your spouse and went away to a desert island and you lived alone. You can’t live alone, you got to bring in technology. If you went to that desert island you’d want to take some cooking utensils with you and you don’t want to renew them. you’d want some contact with others. So it is essentially impossible now to set an idyllic life separate from so we get connected to. Okay, when you move back to the thing of schizophrenia. Now it is possible for a therapist to work with schizophrenia and alcoholism and if you have enough life to devote to it or that other person to grow up provided that is a fairly mature therapist. In relationship with another human being it is essentially impossible to have a relationship and to grow up more than the parent person in that relationship. That is one of the old precepts in psychoanalysis and it still hangs pretty good. You’ve got to cut off a relationship and if you cut off you become.. You looking quizzical
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– I am not going to repeat just for you. I do not let you be special. Okay I’ll say it again. I would say that in the long history of the human race it is impossible for two people to be together and for the younger person to outgrow, to grow beyond the parent person.
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– Child/parent analyst/patient take it what you want it, wherever you want. If you increase that to a triangle it becomes possible but in a two person system it is not possible. And I would say that this is one of the problems that gets into it. So it is possible for a pretty good therapist to take somebody who’s really impaired and help them grow, with in limits, to a point. If the therapist has enough of life to put into it. You can do that with all kinds of things. I mean, you can do that with adopted kids. You can take a kid and help that kid with in limits but you can’t go all the way with it. You can buy the dogs from the dog pound and it all depends on the maturity of the parent person, the person, the responsible person in it you can do it with in limits. Okay so that has to do with the relationship with one person. Now back in those old days I did pretty well with those impaired people and I was one of the more successful therapists with it, with in limits. But I wanted some way in which these people can grow on their own and not be attached to me. And I thought maybe that’s one of the things that got me started in family. Was that some how, if people could move back to their families, they would be better off than if they remained attached to an outsider.
