Frank Giove

Baege: So, I’m here, I’m Monika Baege, and I’m here interviewing Frank Giove.

Giove: Yes.

Baege: “Who are you, and how did you come to know Dr. Bowen?

Giove: I am Frank Giove, I’m a retired clinical social worker, and I first came to know Dr Bowen through Dr. Phil Lorio, where- I met him, at Fort Sam, Houston, Texas. In 1971. He was a psychiatrist, family therapist, who had trained with Dr. Bowen, at- in his program, and I heard about Dr. Lorio, through one of the individuals I was working with, and he told me that he had this different approach to treating families. And he was running the inpatient unit, at Brook Army Hospital, and he was discharging all of the patients, and seeing them on an-on an outpatient basis. And this intrigued me, so I sought out Dr. Lorio, and talked a little bit about Dr. Bowen, about participating in the program, his program, and I had expressed an interest in my own family, just as a family member, and- and I ended up, in the fall, of 1971, traveling to Washington DC from San Antonio. And I met- that’s when I met Dr. Bowen. I walked into the Thursday night professional meeting, and Walter Tomen was giving the presentation. That night. And after the meeting was over, Dr. Lorio introduced me, to Dr. Bowen.

Baege: Hmm.

Giove: And…

Baege: Interesting. And then what happened?

Giove: Well, that particular e- you know, there wasn’t much going on. Tomen had- was talking, about his family constellation, and was – the meeting room was packed. And the next two days were, was the symposium, for 1971. And I attended- I attended, that meeting. It was absolutely- I don’t know if that was the year they had 1200 people, but it was all about family. And so I met a lot of other people, of course couldn’t remember who they were, I mean, it was so many people, and you know, I just kind of hung out with Phil Lorio, and attended that night. It was a memorial banquet, for Nathan Ackerman, and Dr. Bowen presided over that. Which was -it was an incredible thing. Really paid tribute to him. Then the next day, was another round of the symposium. And then I left, the following day, and went back to Fort Sam, Houston, Texas, I was in the Army at the time. And I had ordered- I had ordered all of the tapes, they were all audiotapes and so when I didn’t receive the tapes in a few weeks, I hadn’t really- I’d only met Dr. Bowen, just briefly. I-I wrote and said, “Where are the tapes?” And-or I called, I might have called the Center and spoke to Ruth.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: Though there was no Center then, it was just out of St Mary’s Hall, and the He wrote me back a crazy note, about the tapes. Can’t even remember what it was, but it was funny. But the tapes eventually arrived, and so that was, that was my first meeting with him. Nothing really significant, except you know, the meeting was overwhelming, with so many people.

Baege: And just to follow up, you were talking about Phil Lorio, was releasing, people? You were talking about he was working at Brooks Hospital?

Giove: Yeah, he was discharging- he was- he was in the Army, he was a psychiatrist. And he, with, with the approach that Dr. Bowen-he was using at the time, from my understanding,

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: is that he was discharging a lot of the in-patients, and having them come back to see him on an out-patient basis. With their spouses. And you know, I asked if I could talk about my family with Phil, and we-we became friendly, and we would go to lunch, and he started- he let me talk about my family, and

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: you know, he sketched the little family diagram, and he told me, there were a lot of myths about my family. And then he was very kind. He gave me the first comprehensive paper that Dr. Bowen did, it w-we used to call it the ‘Yellow Paper,’ it was bound in a- a-a- so I read that, I can’t tell you how many times I read that. That was the first compilation of the theory’s six concepts, at the time.

Baege: Okay.

Giove: And- but when I -At the symposium, just to backtrack a second, I- I bought a book, it was a book that came out, and it was -it was also a draft of another paper. And that draft was later to be the Anonymous Paper, which I took back with me. But- Oh, so from ’71 on I just talked to Phil, and- and he kind of coached me along, and I was just- I had changed my whole way, of, of dealing with people. I was a- I was a I was the social worker on the burn unit, a research burn unit at Brook,

Baege: Mmm.

Giove: and also did some out-patient. And I changed my old way of doing things, trying to ask more thoughtful questions, and delving into some of the extended family.

Baege: (inaudible)

Giove: And then, I came back, I- I came to New York, the following year, I was- I attended a meeting. It was called “The Lone Wolf.” “The Lone Wolves and the All-Together-Nows,” and Dr. Bowen was the lone wolf, I guess it was the (Gerhen) Group, they were the All-Together-Nows, and I sat in on those. Bowen conducted some classes-where they- or afforded people time, and I remember being right in the front row, and he was- and he talked more about his ideas. So it was very, very intriguing.

Baege: Interesting. Do you remember what he said, about the lone wolf?

Giove: Well, it was- the lone wolf was something that the- that was a name, given to him, by the people in New York. Ah, because Bowen was, you know there was individuality, and togetherness, and somehow he was portrayed that-that you have to be an individual, and it-it was almost my impression, that, if you were for togetherness, you weren’t c- you were warm. If you were individuality, you were cold and unfeeling. He had, he had that reputation. And I thought it was really rather intriguing, because, ah so he was set up as the Lone Wolf. But he did his interview, and, with the family, and- but I think part of it was kind of a -kind of a joke, but a lot of people,

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: I think, did see him as sort of distant and aloof, and that the theory was not -that it was, ah, really didn’t take people’s feelings into account.

Baege: Did- is that how you saw it, at that time?

Giove: No.

Baege: No.

Giove: No, actually-

Baege: You were intrigued by it, it sounds like.

Giove: Well, I was just intrigued by the thinking of-of thinking about those six concepts.

Baege: Right.

Giove: And the theory is all about feelings. The theory is all about feelings. And ah, but we haven’t gotten into…things yet, but….

Bagee: Mmhmm.

Giove: But I think his approach, or his thinking, was that the best way to get at people’s feelings, would be, to allow them to be more spontaneous. By going for the thinking. And if you read that chapter, that first compilation, of the theory, he talks about that. That people, if you’re trying to get- help people to think, that the feelings are more, they’re more spontaneous, rather than pushing feelings all the time.

Baege: Uh huh.

Giove: So that was very intriguing, to me.

Baege: Yeah, interesting.

Giove: I’m speaking too softly.

Baege: Are you?

Giove: Yeah, I think so.

Baege: So what was the nature of your relationship, with Dr. Bowen?

Giove: Well, my- the nature of the relationship was a very gradual thing. In 1972, I tried to find a way to be reassigned, back to the Washington DC area. And I, I was able to-to get reassigned, to Fort Meyer, Virginia. And knowing this, I applied, I applied for the post-graduate program in 1973. Had to fill out a very, very- had to do a lot of paperwork. And was accepted.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: Into the- it was a Tuesday night program, we met from 7:15 to 10:30, every Tuesday.

Baege: Mmmm.

Giove: And well, then there was also the opportunity to -to go to Richmond for the cl- it was, It was called MCV, then, Medical College of Virginia. Dr. Bowen did these interviews on Fridays, and at- in the (ed). In a huge auditorium, they were live.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: The-the people were in another room, but we were actually seeing two th- uh, two families, one in the morning, followed by discussion, and one in the afternoon, followed by discussion. So I had the post-graduate program, and I had the MCV. And it was quite lively. Dr. Bowen did it all, and I- In ’73, he was doing some of the, some of the classes on Tuesday night. And he didn’t do them all, there were different faculty people’d come in. And so there were opportunities, to, ah, be in the class, ask questions, I was I was scared to death, I mean here was this man who was very prominent, and but he acted just, he acted the way he always acted. I don’t think he ever put himself up on a pedestal. But he always just really tried to stay contained, cause you know, when you ask him questions, like that and, he would, he was able to decide for what he thought was thoughtful, and what he, he couldn’t handle. And I liked the fact that if he didn’t know, he’d say that, or “I just don’t know. I don’t know what you do, about that.”

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: So that was the first year, and also as a trainee, we were allowed to get a reduced rate for the Private Professional Day. Did you know about the Private Professional Day?

Baege: I-I’ve heard about it

Giove: Okay.

Baege: Yeah.

Giove: And these were supposed to be little 5 minute presentations. People were only supposed to present an idea, but they usually turned out many of them turned out to be too long. And that missed the point of what Bowen was trying to get across. Of just, ‘get the ideas out there.’ So, I was in the post-graduate program, in- from ’73 to ’74, ’74 to ’75, ’74 to ’75, there was…I didn’t really approach him, The first two years of the training program were kind of difficult. It was, for me, the third year was where I began to, you know, I was known a little bit more. But so there was the-I’m trying to think about’74, ’75.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: Then I guess in between ’75 and ’76, you know I was not afraid to ask questions, and he-he responded. And he was you know, nothing really enlightening. I was still trying to absorb the theory, and, and I had

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: Lillian was my supervisor the second year, first year was Jack (Broad). And the third year was Mike Kerr, and now, I would joke around, with him, a little bit.

Baege: With Mike Kerr?

Giove: No, with Dr. Bowen.

Baege: Uh huh.

Giove: We’d go to those medical conferences, down in Richmond, we were still going down there

Baege: (Richmond? Uhuhhh.)

Giove: And- you know, we’d all have breakfast together, and you know, they’d- there was a wonderful cafeteria, and he was there, with Mike, and Kathy and a lot of other people, and it was a chance, you’d- you could just joke around with him, and you could just see that he was a- he was a regular, regular guy, you know, he didn’t act –

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: he wasn’t arrogant, or anything like that. So that-that was- that was very-that was very, very good. And those clinical conferences were just unbelievable. How much just- how much theory would get discussed, they there’d be these- there’d be these live presentations followed by discussion, then lunch, and then another discussion. And he would just- I mean, I was just taking notes, and trying to absorb, and a lot of the social work students from MCV, would ask questions, and so that was useful. And

Baege: How many people were there, usually?

Giove: There were a lot of people.

Baege: A lot of people in the audience?

Giove: Mmm. A lot. It was in, like, a medical auditorium. And, I mean, that thing was, I don’t want to say it was filled, but it was there- it was a lot. There would have to be over a hundred people, or more. And it was really quite something. Why don’t I just ask me

Baege: Well, I was going to ask you, kinda, what, what you, what you think you were, particularly, struck by during that time. It sounds like initially, when you were back in Texas, you were initially intrigued, and then you, now you were in Washington, and you were attending more things. You were more immersed in some different learning experiences, I’m just wondering, you know, what would be some of the highlights for you? Of what you per- of what you really took, from what you were learning, from that?

Giove: One of the things was that his theory, and he was still developing concepts, he had a couple of more concepts to develop, like emotional cutoff and societal regression, But what I learned was how simple the theory, as presented, is. Its presentation’s simple. But yet very clear. But yet within that clarity, and simplicity, there is so many, so many ways to go. So many questions that that you could ask. And, as I said earlier, it’s really- it was real easy to get side-tracked. The- the analytical, or the conventional, the conventional material that I learned about, in-in school, and I mean that was accurate within its own narrow perspective, but it was based upon Freud, and his thinking, and subjectivity, and, and th- Bowen was just made it a lot more simpler. He, at this time it was two-person relationship, individual psychopathology, to the three-person relationship, four persons, five persons, ten persons.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: And he dropped, at one point, he dropped the family ego mass, he just kept moving away, from the psychiatric terms. Never criticized psychiatry, or Freud, but he always thought there was a better way to go. With it. So the-it was intriguing, it was -I found myself just trying to be more plainspoken with people that I would see, and tried to think about things not necessarily in a, in an analytical, psychoanalytical way. Cause I think

Baege: Mmmm.

Giove: I think most people think in terms of psychoanalysis.

Baege: Yeah. It still permeates.

Giove: Well it, well it’s everybody, you’re- the way somebody looks, moves, does. (inaudible) All of that stuff. It was an effort to try not to do that. And then I was trying some stuff, with my mother and father.

Baege: Yeah. Giove: Um.

Baege: One question- I just want to follow up, before we go on is, you said, Bowen made it real simple. And clear. But within that there were so many complexities or whatever, variables,

Giove: So many variables, or

Baege: that it was easy to get side-tracked

Giove: Yes.

Baege: And I was wondering if you could just say a little more about what you meant by that, getting side-tracked.

Giove: Well, you, you could ask questions that were interesting, and, but they really didn’t address theoretical things. I-It’s hard to be clear, about that, I can I can- This is just my opinion. But I can say the same thing goes on now, we go to a symposium, we go to a meeting, or you’re at your group up there, in Vermont,

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: And it’s real easy, with these discussions, to get off. He had a way of keeping it kind of centered.

Baege: Yeah, so like an audience would ask questions, you’re saying.

Giove: Well yeah, I mean that would be-

Baege: Yeah.

Giove: that w- that was it. And,

Baege: Yeah. Yeah, definitely still goes on. Yeah. Alright.

Giove: Yeah. Feel free to interrupt me, and so if-you know, I want to make this relevant, if I an.

Baege: Yeah, okay. Well, I wanted to move on to- you started to talk a little bit about, let me see if I can skip around, here. [silence and paper moving] Was- you just started talking about your family a little bit, and I didn’t know if you wanted to say a little bit about “Was there was anything about your family that spawned your interest in Bowen Theory?” Well, I always had an interest in my family. Because my father was an immigrant. Both sets of grandparents were immigrants. My father came over, when he was two years old. And my father was the oldest of seven children. And his father didn’t speak English, and neither did his mother. And so there was that interest, and then I grew up, in the house I grew up in, I lived, we lived with my- my mother’s parents, my maternal grandparents. And-and the other thing, that was interesting to me, was that my mother’s parents were first cousins. And I- you know (Peter Trydhlman)? We have incest in our family, and he and I joke about that all the time.

Baege: Well, I-I’m also third cousins, with my father.

Giove: kay.

Baege: So I know (inaudible) And-

Giove: Well, anyway, so and I’m involved, I had this interest, before Bowen Theory, before Bowen, just I was interested, in these Italians and their getting together, and fighting, and laughing, and eating, and -but, when I met Phil (Lorio) and got the theory, the first paper, I said, “Wow. This is some really good stuff.” But unfortunately, my dad, and- they didn’t know a lot. There were some cutoffs, so I-I just worked, with (when I hand), I remember asking my mother about grandma and grandpa being first cousins, and that-did this affect my younger brother, who was borderline retarded, I guess, challenged. And she absolutely, vehemently, denied it. So this was something that I’d bring in, and you know, there’s really no evidence about this, whether, you know, I don’t know about brothers and sisters, but that-this, this is one of the things, that that got me interested. And then the other thing was that my mother really got into some serious drinking. Reactive drinking problems. And the factors surrounding that, was not, you know, everyone thought it was the alcohol, but it was, you know, connected to my brother’s situation, and the- my brother marrying this dysfunctional woman, that my father had promoted with, with the Angela’s father. And but, there’s, there’s an awful lot that went on there. And then, and then my father’s over- my father would- my father did everything. Overfunctioned in everything. He was very nice about it, but he was a do-er. And-and actually, he kept buying her all the booze, and she was drinking more, and my mother would just get absolutely nasty- she was very nasty. So I remember trying [laughter] one thing that I tried, I guess I went home, for- might have been around a symposium, you know, when it was over, or I made sure I went out and I got $100 bottle of cognac, she was drinking a lot of cognac, with two very nice cognac glasses. And my father was in the kitchen, my brother and sister-in-law and oh, my mother was happy to see me and I said, “Here Mom, here’s a little something for you.” Well, the shit it the-[laughter] -the shit hit the fan. And my mother said, “What are you doing? No! I don’t need this.” And my father didn’t say anything. My brother didn’t say anything. My sister-in-law didn’t say anything. But I-I think what came across is I was not -I was anxious, but I was going to try not to be anxious, about her drinking. So, but

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: But I mean she had some really- but it was connected to my father, and brother, and sister-in-law, and to my wife, at the time.

Baege: Yeah.

Giove: She felt real isolated, and, and- But I never- I never ever- I got into it with Mother once, [silence] And I was able. I was able to deal- I was able to deal with her.

Baege: (You know, I would) to think about some of what you were just describing, about going home with the cognac?

Giove: That was good cognac.

Baege: [laughter] It sounds like it! As sort of, you were kinda going against what I would think is sort of the emotional programming of the family, in which the drinking had become sort of, the symptom, or the anxiety got bound in that. And it wasn’t just about your mother. It was sort of the whole family was in it together, and you were doing your part along, (differently)

Giove: Well, I mean, they, they were able to, they just saw her as “the problem.” But,

Baege: Right. But that would be the process

Giove: (my-the-) But my dad was part of the problem, in placating my brother and sister-in-law, and but that was- that would be one. One, one example. And she was a woman that you really, I learned that you can’t confront somebody when they’re drinking, you just can’t.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: My mother was a reactive drinker, because she stopped and then started again, and- Why don’t you ask- I’m just looking for a little guidance here, so I can give you some more context, in terms of the years.

Baege: Yeah. Mmhmm. The years of…

Giove: just of-of knowing Bowen in the program, of- I’ve talked about ’74, then I wanted to talk about ’75, ’76. Cause this-this is an important time, but

Baege: Okay. Yeah.

Giove: would you want to ask me something about that? How

Baege: Well [silence] Some of the questions… you know, a lot of the purpose of this interview, is to get a sense for who was Bowen,

Giove: Mmhmm.

Baege: as a research, as a man, and as a person, and

Giove: Okay.

Baege: also how, you know, how did he influence your life, how did- how did he manage to get you in

Giove: The re- The research- The research was the family, and I attended as much as I could. He even did those Wednesday meetings, and I presented at those Wednesday meetings.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: I presented my family, and it was- the research was the family. The family, the family. And, but the turning point, he had-the turning point was, was either I think either ’75, and he had a geneticist, come to do the private professional, day, and to be the symposium speaker, the first time,

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: And- and then he announced- I mean, he had written about it, about his background, about thinking about evolution and Darwin, and, but in ’75, he said that he was going to shift his focus off the family dynamics, therapy- he was going to shift the focus from therapy to science.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: And what did he mean by science? I guess he meant the natural sciences, looking for real science- real science, not- switch from subjectivity to fact. So, and what I noticed was that

Baege: Yeah.

Giove: there was a big drop in the attendance, of the symposium, kept dropping down, and he said he didn’t care if there was only ten people, but this is what he was going to do, and

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: -and that even made it more interesting, because people were starting to talk about animal behavior, biology, I mean I got a bunch of-I started reading biology, and (Mendell) and just, just- but it was useful, because it was- it was an effort to think more critically, to think more factually. And think more factually about the family, and I, you know, had this meeting this weekend, this is another example where, I mean, it’s just -but then again you can get, people get, sidetracked. Sideways, there’s so much there. How do you- The two, quite, to me have the two haven’t quite come together yet, people make assumptions or will have analogies, but it hasn’t quite gotten there yet. But he encouraged, Bowen encouraged that, though. To keep-keep at it. Keep writing about it, and that’s what- that’s what people are doing. And it’s-it’s as if science is gonna have to catch up to Bowen Theory, not the other way around.

Baege: Interesting.

Giove: That’s how I see it. It’s- that’s how I really see it. Like, people will just really get all excited about E.O. Wilson, and (connect it, and see they’re two of the same). Bowen Theory and Wilson’s, they’re not- it doesn’t- well, Wilson was big on genes, but that was a big turning point.

Baege: Well, What would you say, how do you see the difference between Bowen and Wilson, in terms of their ideas?

Giove: I-I don’t know how to express it. I think- I think that Wilson’s- he sees things in a conventional light. I don’t see-think he sees the interconnectedness. Among species. James Shapiro, now, has written a book on evolution in the 21st century, you know about it?

Baege: I’ve heard of it. Yeah.

Giove: Okay, I have it now, it’s going to be a tough read but he was talking about differentiation within the same species. It’s tough to talk about, because I’m not a biologist, you know.

Baege: It sounds like you still have some ideas about it. Maybe pre-verbal or something, yeah.

Goivie: I do (inaudible). And-but- So, I was there when (Deborah Kleinman) was invited, I was here when E.O. Wilson was invited to be the speaker. I drove him around, he was in the back of my car, so that was a real big, big turning point.

Baege: Mmm.

Giove: He was going in that direction. The-but (Paukin) wanted me to bring out something about Dr. Bowen living

Baege: Okay.

Giove: differentiation, living- trying to live it. Okay. In 1976, there was a meeting in New York,

Baege: Mmm. Great.

Giove: on the triune brain, with Paul McKean and Dr.- It was APA, I think.

Baege: Okay.

Giove: Did you ever hear Paul McLean?

Baege: Yes.

Giove: Yeah.

Baege: Oh yes.

Giove: So, I’m a foll- I still follow him, I still think he’s got it, with those three brains. Anyway, there was this meeting, and it was- it was fabulous, because McLean did his thing and then Bowen got up, talking about these Komodo dragons, and the reptilian brains, and that was in my third year, this is ’76- this is my fourth year, I took a fourth year and, I took a fourth year. And Mike was my supervisor for two years.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: And so I had known Dr. Bowen, a little bit better, and would speak up in meetings and so on. But, this particular night, this particular meeting, I had asked my father, the meeting was in New York and I stayed in Brooklyn with my parents. It was wonderful. I took some time,

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: the meeting- It was great, because I’d had not only the meeting, but I’d had the rest of the time, to visit.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: And my- brought my little kid, they were little then, This was in -76, so my- this is relevant, my oldest daughter, was 9. And Michelle was 7. And so I had asked my father if we could take Dr. Bowen out to dinner, with-with Mike and Kathy. At a restaurant called (Courvadis), which is a fabulous restaurant. In New York City, I mean, and I said, “You’ll get to meet him,” and- and Leonard can come, my brother could come, (from work). And he liked that idea, and I asked Dr. Bowen, and I asked Mike and Kathy, and

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: they said yes, and so we, I mean, I can’t really describe the- what the kind of restaurant this was. I mean, this was top drawer. It was, so, anyways.

Baege: (Hafta) take your word for it.

Giove: we, we get there, my father’s standing in the street, waving me on, “come on, come on,” and I guess we were in a cab, no they- yeah, we were in a cab, I just took the subway in, and we came into the restaurant, he said, “Hurry up!” He said, “Your mother’s here. With your kids.” And, well. My mother- my mother was very, very drunk. Very, very reactive. Very, just out of control, with her reactivity. She was- she wasn’t a woman that would pass out, she’d just- all of that, whatever was inside her, came out. So we had the meeting, “Hello, how are you,” she immediately went after him.

Baege: After Dr. Bowen?

Giove: Yeah. “What is this psychiatry, this is bullshit, you’re crazy.” And he was-

Baege: [laughter]

Giove: And we sat down. We’re at the table, I’m sitting next to my mother, my father’s at the head of the table, my brother, Kerr’s down the other end with my kids. And she starts in, on him. Just going after him. And attacking him, and he’s cool, he’s just- he says, he looks at me and he says, “You know, Frank, your father is the head of the corporation.” My father was the President of his family business. And -and then my mother is, she- I’ll never forget it, there was some kind of nice appetizer, shrimp cocktail or something, and she gets up , leans over the table, and just grabs his hair. And says, “What’s the matter with you, baby?” And she says, “You need to, you need to loosen up.” And she started you know, his hair was thin, she she started removing his hair, and, and [laughter] and God, I was just-I’m just sitting there, I didn’t say anything, and I just took another slug of whatever I was drinking. And he was-he talked to her, just wasn’t- he said, something about, you just “You don’t need to be so uptight, and “What do you mean, so uptight?” Just- she just went on and on and on, but he was just, was cool. And then, he did the unthinkable, I mean, the question was just it was a magnificent question. He says to her, and I’m not going to use any profane language, but I wish I could, because it would really [laughter] he says, he asks her, he says, “Elena, who do you like better? Your sons, or your daughters-in law?” And, she says, “What are you- what are you, mad? What are you, crazy?” She said, “My daughters-in-law, they came through the front door. My sons, I opened my -” And she used the c-word. But just, right in his face. You know, that’s not a great word, to use. So she just- I “What are you, mad? I opened my — for my sons.” He- he- I’m looking at him, he’s his hair’s messed up, and parted, and he’s talking- and he looks at me, he says, [laughter] “You know, Frank, your mom’s got a point there.”

Baege: [laughter]

Giove: Well, my mother, she settled down, she just settled down. She just- and she said, and then she said, “Alright baby, I’m, you know, I’m sorry.” But she wasn’t really apologetic, but she was, she was settling down.

Baege: Who-who was she apologizing to?

Giove: Well, to Dr. Bowen. She was not really- she was just kind of, I think she realized how strong her language was. And-and the Kerrs were there and they heard it all, they heard it all. And my brother, my brother was intrigued. Ran over to- sat with, stood over Dr. Bowen at the table, and had his arm around him, and yeah, I guess my brother was, you know, he was 40 years younger. Maybe, I was 30, I was 37 or 38. 38. He was 34. And, had his arm around Dr. Bowen, and said, you know, “I really like you”, and, and then he started just busting out and singing. Cause he liked to sing. Started singing in (Courvalis). [laughter] And Bruno was the owner of the restaurant, he was just- they had Beef Wellington, I mean, it was a spread. Just- It was just incredible. And that particular night, my brother was just so excited about all this. He ran over to another table, and introduced himself to (Howard Coselle), and his wife. I don’t know if you knew who Howard Coselle was, but Howard Coselle was funny. So,

Baege: Mmmhmm. Yeah, I do.

Giove: but, you know, when I had spoken to Andrea about this, and she really thought this was something that was very important, to present, about him. And he never said -he never said- I never heard him say anything negative about Mother. Never said anything negative about anybody. He would say things, to me, in private, about other people. Negative things. But that’s- down the road. But he said that you can do that, if you keep your mouth shut you can just do anything.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: But that was ’76, ’77, and but that’s where he- I mean, that was right- that was action.

Baege: That’s quite a story.

Giove: But I mean, can you imagine

Baege: I mean, I think it’s pretty interesting that, you know, just the fact that you invited him, and he came.

Giove: Oh, and Mike and Kathy came, it was, yeah. It was, yeah. So that’s ’76.

Baege: Mmhmm, Mike and Kathy.

Giove: And then I left in ’77, I was transferred to Fort Knox, Kentucky, and I was devastated. And they had- they gave me a party, and they gave me all the tapes! They gave me the basic series of tapes.

Baege: Wow.

Giove: And…then-

Baege: Someone you must have had an important position, in, in-

Giove: I was in the group- I was a trainee, but I-I he-he said that I- he said one meeting, he says that, he said, “Frank thinks in jokes”. I find ever since I got involved, with this, group in ’70, I guess formally in ’73,

Baege: Mmmhmm.

Giove: I found that there was aw- an awful lot, and this is me, of absurdity, that I would hear. And it would just- it would just make me laugh. I and I would- I would throw stuff out at him. That I thought was absurd.

Baege: Okay.

Giove: And I remember one Private Professional Day, he was saying that we should do such and such and such. So then I waited, I raised my hand, and well this was Private Professional Day. And I said something to him, I asked a question, and he says, “Well, why did you ask the question- why did you ask me that kind of question?” I had an answer for him, I said, “because doesn’t it- isn’t it what you said, that you wanted us to do such and such and such and such.” And he got it, and he lost it. He started laughing so hard. Mrs. Bowen said I could make him laugh all the time. Not that I- I tried to, but, but, but, but I, the third and fourth year in that program it was just- I mean, so much was going on, with the natural -I mean, he did the Time Magazine thing, he did the schizophrenia thing, the double bind, but he was really into, he was really into science. Boy that was just-it just made it so much better. It was just

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: tracked it away from, you know, you, you, psychiatry, all they can do, is brain, medication, and neuro-whatever, neuro-manipulation. But this guy, he-it went in a different direction. Even astronomy, cause it’s outside of the box of analysis.

Baege: Mmhmm. Yeah.

Giove: There’s more- I but I…

Baege: Fortunate thing. Well, lemme see where we’re at, here,

Giove: I gotta bring you up, to- when I came back. But- I’ll let you…

Baege: Okay.

Giove: I don’t wanna-

Baege: I-I mean I’m fascinated, with what you’re talking about, so you can just go where you think is important.

Giove: Okay. So I go to Fort Knox, Kentucky, I go to Fort Knox, Kentucky, it was very hard. And I- I was getting anxious, about not being around. Which was a mistake.

Baege: Mmm. What was a mistake?

Giove: Getting anxious about not being there.

Baege: Oh, alright.

Giove: So, I wrote Mike a letter, and I said, “I’m really concerned I’m losing it, whatever I had.” He wrote back he said there were big changes, at the Center, he says Bowen Murray Bowen has taken- is wearing Birkenstocks, with a, he’s wearing Birkenstocks with a beard.

Baege: [laughter]

Giove: All this stuff, and so I knew, but just to loosen me up.

Baege: (s’alright)

Giove: So then I was able to work out something with Mike and Kathy. Where I came up every month, for the clinical conference. And did that, for two years. And during that two year period, Bowen moved the conference to Washington. Because he just couldn’t- it was hard for him, he was getting older. And, in addition to that, he wanted -he wanted other people to do the clinical conference. But not, not right away. So, while I was at Fort Knox, Kentucky, I get this letter from him. And he’s invited me to join the faculty. So, I-I mean, it was a really nice letter, and he signs it ‘Murray.’ I never called him Murray. I took that up with him, I said, “you know, it’s just, you’re like a teacher.” So in ’79, I became a faculty member, I guess programs were getting bigger, and, and that was some good stuff. There was just more, more and more, was going on,

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: And in- at one point, in 1982, he’s got real disgruntled with the faculty, and was gonna quit, he was just very upset, about not focusing on the trainees, not focusing on self, and he wanted to, and I approached him, and I said, “Why-why’d you want to do this? Dean Paparo just got here, and then you’re going to quit?” And I- and so I said, “Can’t we just do a tape, or something?” I did a tape, with him, in 1982 or ’93. But I didn’t do real well with it, I should have been more challenging, to him.

Baege: This was a tape, of- ?

Giove: This was a tape, of why he wanted to leave, and how they- he was just (inaudible)

Baege: Oh, you were interviewing him about that?

Giove: Well he, he interviewed me.

Baege: Oh, okay.

Giove: And, so, anyway, should we keep talking, or?

[noises from other conversations] [other conversation continues]

Hold for a second, [laughter] Okay. Right, hey. So, just keep going? Okay, so, anyway,

Baege: Yeah.

Giove: arranged that with Andrea, and, and I didn’t know, didn’t really know, what to say. He wanted to leave! And he, he was saying, that Mike Kerr represented the group,

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: and they weren’t doing what they were supposed to do, and I just did not do well with that interview. And so the following week, he interviewed Mike. And Mike was- (still got the focus). And I don’t know- I still, really, don’t understand it. But -allegedly, it was about (Petrayees) getting the focus, and influencing the faculty. so that was- but then, Dan Paparo, asked me if we could do a Thursday meeting about science, and I said okay, you know, it was Dan Paparo, myself, and Prisc- not Priscilla, Pat Meyer. And then for some reason he changed his mind. He didn’t go. And, and then the-

Baege: He didn’t come, to the-

Giove: No, he didn’t leave the Center, he just, he says, “Okay satisfied.” And I, and I was getting to know him, more. And I said, “Can I come and talk to you?” I said, you know, “I can talk to you in these meetings, but it’s not the same.” So I went to his house, and talked about everything, not much family, about everything. And what he was thinking about, and- Um. Let’s see. He- he got sick, and, he (had the) surgery, and that- he couldn’t talk too well, But, it didn’t stop him. And, when he had the hospitalization, and I think the faculty members tried to help him out, as much as they could, and – this is very distracting. [silence] Um…[silence] This is like changing my diaper in public! [laughter]

Baege: [laughter]

Giove: That’s a pretty good way to put it, right? So, anyway, he -his head- the faculty were trying real hard, but I think his illness probably didn’t help him too much, and you know, there were-there was side-taking, and all that. And

Baege: Hmm. Hmm.

Giove: But he- couple of other points, where he really helped me, is I

Baege: Okay.

Giove: retired from the Army and I had a terrible time at work, and he talked to me, and worked with me. And I knew I was going to lose the job, and he ended up- I was- I have the letter, he ended up dictating a letter to me, that I sent in. And the next day he was in the hospital again. But that’s the kind of guy he was. I mean, he

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: -he would do for you, if he could. He really did. And I’m gonna let you ask me.

Baege: Well, I’m so interested in what you’re talking about, and sounds like you’ve sort of gone through the, the gamut, of the timeline.

Giove: Yeah, the timeline was the important thing.

Baege: While he was alive.

Giove: Yeah.

Baege: And, were there was that you kinda took what you learned, from your experiences with him, what did you do with that, after he- after he died?

Giove: After he died?

Baege: Yeah. Where did you go with all this stuff? Were there ways that you kind of developed? I don’t know. Something- you know, people took I’ve- seen, that people took what- you know, he influenced a lot of people, and then they went and did different things, with that influence that where they led different things, in their lives. And I- I just wonder where you went with it.

Giove: Yes, the-yes- the biggest, the biggest things, were knowing that I could use those concepts. That if I would bump up against something I had those concepts. The other thing, was that there was a world out there, of science and biology, and mainly, living things. Astronomy. Not-not physics, so much, cause physics is a mental process. But, reading,

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: the- about the life of Einstein. Then I was active, 1990 to 2004, at the Center, I taught the introductory lecture series, and ran the Thursday night program for awhile. And attended about 98% of the clinical conferences, did some of the clinical conferences. but I think r- it’s so easy, to mix what society is putting out there, and so I always just try to go back, cause they’re all laid out there, and it’s not simplistic, it’s

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: When you think about multigenerational process, think about differentiation of self, how much can somebody handle, you know, like if you’re 35, you’re- you have differentiation of self but up to that level. And anxiety. But it’s there. One time he said, I- he said, “you know, with this theory,”- he was in a classroom one day- he says, “with this theory,” he says, “I’ve just plastered over all of this bullshit. And made it simpler for people.

Baege: [laughter]

Giove: I remember when he did that, he’s “I’ve just-” [silence] And it’s there. And I have some favorites, one of them is in his book. It’s called, ‘An Interview with Murray Bowen.’ Have you seen that? That’s a wonderful question and answer thing.

Baege: Yes.

Giove: And- and then when he wrote Subjectivity, Homo Sapiens and Science, that was another one. And then when he wrote Theory and the Practice of Psychotherapy, he told me he wrote it especially for me. [laughter] But, but it’s tough, you know, when you’re dealing with, well I got a little anxious, when everybody was in the room, um, but that’s all, but that’s all part of it. It didn’t really mean anything.

Baege: Well, and I saw your humor come out there, that was a good one.

Giove: Well I-But, um, I think about theory every day of my life. Many, many times during the day. So I’m reading the prayer book, and I say, “This is not Bowen Theory. This is not Bowen Theory. And this doesn’t connect with- this does not connect with that.” He never got to do a ninth concept. He-he talked about a way of thinking about it.

Baege: Mmhmm.

Giove: So, I’m still going. Shall we stop-

Baege: How are we doing on time, here?

Schara: It’s, um, it’s a bit before 3, I think. Ten of 3.

Giove: You want me to stop, or keep going?

Baege: I wanted to just ask you one, one last thing, here.

Giove: Okay.

Baege: I’m gonna just ask you what you think was, you know, you think about Bowen’s main contribution to the Western scientific worldview, what would you say about that?

Giove: [silence] His theory is definitely a new way to think about the human condition. That it’s a way of getting away from blame, self-blame, guilt, it’s a way of trying to see that the human is a part of life on earth, and is not unique and different. That we can’t get away from that, (and we can’t) make it different- so Jay thinks he’s unique and different, I think I’m unique and different. Unique and different, you’re unique and different.

Baege: (inaudible) Special. [laughter[

Giove: But that’s what I- that, I think, is the essence of it. That we’re all a part of life on earth.

Baege: Yeah.

Giove: Oh! He’s here! The question that Dr. Bowen asked. ‘Do you ever think of your mother as a product of evolution?’ That is the-that would be a big contribution. Did you ever hear that question asked?

Baege: No.

Giove: Did you ever, think of your mom, as a product of evolution? Okay.

Baege: Oh, yeah, definitely.

Giove: Okay. Really?

Baege: Yeah. Especially as she was dying, I really-the whole idea, of us as living organisms.

Giove: Okay. But that- was, that-That was- but I think that, uh… I think when that shift was made it was just phenomenal. Although we talked about it.

Baege: Yeah. Well I mean you really embraced – sounds like you really embraced that shift, towards science.

Giove: I’ve been excommunicated, from the Catholic Church. As a result. I’m doomed to perdition. [laughter]

Baege: [laughter] You’ve really been (ousted). Well is there anything else you want to say, before we bring this to a close?

Giove: I…

Baege: That you haven’t had a chance, to…?

Giove: [silence] I guess the thing, really, seeing Dr. Bowen in action with my mother and father, was the practical thing. And he always tried to just present himself as a human being, and not as something special. But he polar- people got polarized. I mean, there either was… [silence] the deity, or an old son-of-a-bitch. And he just- he tried to stay neutral with that, but- I’d love to keep talking- Go to Top